Which political view is best for Britain?

[LuketheDuke]

hum if you know anything about the USSR then it was a Communist State which had a Communist constitution. it was manipulated by leaders like Stalin to make people believe it was a socialist society which gave people the inclination to think they were politically empowered. Socialism is different to the ideology of Communism as it doesnt rest its principles on one leader and your struggling to understand that Undertaker.

As for your vendetta against Labour you also dont look at circumstances, for instance the post war economic decline which no one identified with until Callaghan realised action needed to be taken. Events shape PMs and their governments, if Callaghan dealt with the Falklands War Im sure hed have a much better write up.

And yes Capitalism does suck, look at big business' and how they exploit people, look at how the banks have shrunk our economy, 4 million children live in poverty in the UK. Just because your well off it doesnt mean that makes the system ok.

[Jordy]

hum if you know anything about the USSR then it was a Communist State which had a Communist constitution. it was manipulated by leaders like Stalin to make people believe it was a socialist society which gave people the inclination to think they were politically empowered. Socialism is different to the ideology of Communism as it doesnt rest its principles on one leader and your struggling to understand that Undertaker.

As for your vendetta against Labour you also dont look at circumstances, for instance the post war economic decline which no one identified with until Callaghan realised action needed to be taken. Events shape PMs and their governments, if Callaghan dealt with the Falklands War Im sure hed have a much better write up.

And yes Capitalism does suck, look at big business' and how they exploit people, look at how the banks have shrunk our economy, 4 million children live in poverty in the UK. Just because your well off it doesnt mean that makes the system ok.

4 million children in poverty indeed, Labour have been in government for over 10 years and they still haven't sorted it, yet they're far more socialist than the conservative party? Good work Labour :rolleyes:

Poverty in the UK is in relation to how much people earn, if the majority of the UK earned a massive £250 an hour, then the people earning £100 would be in 'Poverty'. It is therefore impossible to eradicate what we think of poverty in the UK, it will always be there.

Poverty in China, The Soviet Union and North Korea is a completely different story however, that's poverty as in people starving and dying of easily curable things because their hospitals lack resources.

+rep alexxxx for that post btw

[-:Undertaker:-]

hum if you know anything about the USSR then it was a Communist State which had a Communist constitution. it was manipulated by leaders like Stalin to make people believe it was a socialist society which gave people the inclination to think they were politically empowered. Socialism is different to the ideology of Communism as it doesnt rest its principles on one leader and your struggling to understand that Undertaker.

As for your vendetta against Labour you also dont look at circumstances, for instance the post war economic decline which no one identified with until Callaghan realised action needed to be taken. Events shape PMs and their governments, if Callaghan dealt with the Falklands War Im sure hed have a much better write up.

And yes Capitalism does suck, look at big business' and how they exploit people, look at how the banks have shrunk our economy, 4 million children live in poverty in the UK. Just because your well off it doesnt mean that makes the system ok.

No, it was SOCIALIST. You cant keep dodging the failures of the world - they were socialist. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Socialism is not different to communism, they are the same. Communism was not supposed to rest of the principles of one person, hence why the Tsar was so hated by the communists.

You are wrong yet again, have you ever heard of James Callaghans famous quote which was summed up into "crisis?, what crisis!?" when the winter of discontent was mouting up. Here are his exact words "I don't think other people in the world would share the view [that] there is mounting chaos" - words of a total idiot. As for the Falklands, by that time their most likely wouldn't of been a government, the military was reported to of been thinking of a coup as the crisis was that bad. The unions would never of allowed the United Kingdom to go and retain the islands as socialism hates imperialism.

Why have Labour not sorted this out?
As for the issue, they all get fed. That is not real poverty, the point is that they get fed and clothed, life isn't perfect for anyone but i'm sure they would rather live in this country and be fed than to have the conditions people are suffering right now in North Korea.

You haven't answered my questions on the prevous pages, or compared what I asked you to compare; so I ask you to go back and answer them, and compare those situations.

You are so lucky to live in a free capitalist society, in the words of Margaret Thatcher yet again which you do not seem to be able to reply to; "would you rather the poor be poorer?"

[LuketheDuke]

a lot of these counter arguments seem to be assumptions and personal inclination towards certain ideas. Im not a labour supporter or a socialist but I hate when people say Socialism doesnt work. The matter of the fact is a Communist Party tried to create a Socialist society in Russia and it led to them corrupting democracy and warring with the social elite who constantly undermined them. In Britain we had a government with Socialist ideas but events conspired against them and they rightly failed, Thatcher is not the 2nd coming of Christ just someone who fell on good economic fortune, much like Tony Blair when he came into office but as long as people have money they'll happily act like sheep.


Which leads me onto the Child Poverty which the above two posters seemed to mock, if Britain is much greater than the countries which you have mocked than why do we have the highest child poverty rates in the modern industrial world?

My point is people are quick to lament socialism for all its apparant ills but Capitalism isnt perfect by a long stretch either. I havent called anybody an "idiot" and by all means I know that socialism is an easily corruptable system but play devils advocate and its counterpart isnt a whole lot better.

and btw Id rather have a job than get "poorer". also this threads a bit long in the tooth now so thats my two cence on this one, il leave most people to disagree with me on another post.

[-:Undertaker:-]

a lot of these counter arguments seem to be assumptions and personal inclination towards certain ideas. Im not a labour supporter or a socialist but I hate when people say Socialism doesnt work. The matter of the fact is a Communist Party tried to create a Socialist society in Russia and it led to them corrupting democracy and warring with the social elite who constantly undermined them. In Britain we had a government with Socialist ideas but events conspired against them and they rightly failed, Thatcher is not the 2nd coming of Christ just someone who fell on good economic fortune, much like Tony Blair when he came into office but as long as people have money they'll happily act like sheep.

Which leads me onto the Child Poverty which the above two posters seemed to mock, if Britain is much greater than the countries which you have mocked than why do we have the highest child poverty rates in the modern industrial world?

My point is people are quick to lament socialism for all its apparant ills but Capitalism isnt perfect by a long stretch either. I havent called anybody an "idiot" and by all means I know that socialism is an easily corruptable system but play devils advocate and its counterpart isnt a whole lot better.

and btw Id rather have a job than get "poorer". also this threads a bit long in the tooth now so thats my two cence on this one, il leave most people to disagree with me on another post.

You have no idea or concept of history then, you dismiss all the examples me and Jordy have given and proved of how socialism has failed time and time again. If the USSR was communist and if socialism was totally different, why would they call themselves the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - because they were socialist.

Thatcher is the second coming of chris in British twenty century politics, Churchill saved us from facism and she saved us from socialism. Tony Blair only inherited her economic legacy.

Britain has a high poverty rate because of the jump that had to be made in the 1980s to move all classes of people top higher standards of living. The second point is that a lot of these people prefer to stay on the welfare system and do not see the point in working and improving their familys conditions when the state pays for it. That is why the welfare system needs to be sorted out - something which Labour has failed to fix.

We have all agreed that capitalism isn't perfect, the point we are making and what we have proved time and time again is that capitalism is a thousand times better than socialism. I never said you called anybody an idiot, I was calling James Callgahan an idiot and you haven't replied to my points about him either.

You would rather have a job yes, and good because that shows you are taking advantage of the capitalist conservative society we live in. The people of the Soviet Union also wanted to work and the people in 1970s United Kingdom wanted to work, hence why they threw the shackles of socialism off.

[LuketheDuke]

quick reply to Undertakers post.

Please stop insulting me with all this "you have no sense of blah blah" just because I disagree with you, it really isnt pleasant and we're all entitled to our own opinions. Suprisingly what I think is just as valid as what you think.

Look up the USSR and look what the sole political party was that governed it. Also look up what Gulags are.

Everything else in your post I dont understand as Im not even sure how your linking this stuff together, I get how you like Thatcher but Im pretty sure social development has continued since 1990 so please stop contributing stuff to that lady.

Jobs are jobs, what on earth has that got to do with political systems. If there were no jobs thatd be a Bill and Ted society.

[-:Undertaker:-]

quick reply to Undertakers post.

Please stop insulting me with all this "you have no sense of blah blah" just because I disagree with you, it really isnt pleasant and we're all entitled to our own opinions. Suprisingly what I think is just as valid as what you think.

Look up the USSR and look what the sole political party was that governed it. Also look up what Gulags are.

Everything else in your post I dont understand as Im not even sure how your linking this stuff together, I get how you like Thatcher but Im pretty sure social development has continued since 1990 so please stop contributing stuff to that lady.

Jobs are jobs, what on earth has that got to do with political systems. If there were no jobs thatd be a Bill and Ted society.

You refuse to reply properly to my points, which points to the fact you dont seem to understand the topic fully. I do know what gulags are, and the fact that the Communist Party ruled the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics just proves my point more so, that socialism and communism are the same.

It all stems back to the 1980s my friend, without the reforms she brought in the country would not of been able to afford anything right now just like we couldnt just before she got in, why we had to appeal to the IMF. That is why the 1970s/1980s+ discussion is vital to this topic, because it was a fight between capitalism and socialism, of which capitalism won.

Jobs have everything to do with political systems, whether you work for the state (socialism) and the state owns all business and private enterprise (socialism) or whether you can set up your own business (capitalism) and create jobs through profit (capitalism).

[LuketheDuke]

Nah I read stuff like this which tells me that they're different.

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

And that loan from the IMF helped Britain whether it was bad or not from your point of view. Like the transition from Major to Blair, the economy wasnt in a bad of a state as some people would think.

A jobs a job, you work and you get paid.

[-:Undertaker:-]

You have just linked me to one of the most biased sites you could possibly of linked me to, of course socialists now dont want anything to do with the former Soviet Union because if they used the USSR as an example of socialism then everyone would just laugh at them, not that they dont anyway.

We got to the stage where we had to loan from the IMF, do you realise how bad that is? - loaning from the IMF is basically the net which stops a country collapsing fully, we were bankrupt.

You ignored my point on the jobs in the last post, its a vital part of capitalism against socialism.

[LuketheDuke]

lol wat. that article is explaining what the differences are in an in depth manner. It isnt concerned with bias against this or that just an informative article from people who've actually read the Communist Manifesto.

And your saying I ignore things!:eusa_danc