Ireland 'Votes Yes' In EU Treaty Referendum

[alexxxxx]

We live in a democratic country, thus anybody; the media, the political partys - anyone can say what they want on the European Union. You are basically proposing we enforce a police state because you know that the treaty and the Union itself would be defeated come a referendum, you know it and you hate it.

No, the media does not have a moral right in my view to spew lies, opinion dn other rubbish so voters cannot make an informed decision. That's why I think that the press should be free to report on what they want, but everything they say must be 100% true. In the real world this can't exist. Which is why that on specific issues like this, a referendum can't work.

It is very simple, you have two questioins on the ballot paper, A) Do you want the United Kingdom to adopt the Lisbon Treaty? and B) Do you think on a broader scale, the United Kingdom should withdraw from the European Union? - not a trick question, very simple and people can make their own minds up, just as they do in elections, which path they will vote for.

Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EEA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EFTA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and other european markets?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and cut off all diplomatic ties with EU member states?
Plus countless more options. That's why we have a parliament to do it for us.

The best way to change it to do what the people want, thats what democracy was last time I checked.

[/QUOTE]
Most people think it's OK morally to download music off limewire. Most people think it's OK to break the speed limit. It doesn't mean it's okay or right.


democracy
/dimokrsi/

• noun (pl. democracies) a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.


i don't see how this government sending a commissioner to the EU isn't democratic as these MPs who therefore create the government send a commissioner to the EU. this is democratic. they are doing what the people want. if they aren't, why do people constantly vote in people that aren't doing what they want - ie, removing them from the European union.

[Bun]

You have just made my point even easier for people to see and have amplified it, they took us into (although looking back we can all see it was a awful move) the European Economic Community and not the European Union, two totally different things.

+rep

init and it was nice of major to keep us in in 1993 x

[-:Undertaker:-]

No, the media does not have a moral right in my view to spew lies, opinion dn other rubbish so voters cannot make an informed decision. That's why I think that the press should be free to report on what they want, but everything they say must be 100% true. In the real world this can't exist. Which is why that on specific issues like this, a referendum can't work.

The government lies, and it lied over the invasion of Iraq - it is the public who decide who they believe, as we do in real life. A poor excuse form someone who has run out of ideas to dodge the referendum issue, you say specific issues like this, well what you really mean is 'issues that I know are unpopular and would lose in a referendum' - what right have you and other europhiles got to tell the people of Europe, most who had lived since 1944/45 under the Soviet Union including the Czech & Polish Presidents' - show some balls and face the debate for once, instead of crying and whining on about some conspiracy that Rupert Murdoch has indoctrinated the British public into right wing beliefs.

Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EEA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and attempt to join the EFTA?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and other european markets?
Should Britain withdraw from the EU and cut off all diplomatic ties with EU member states?
Plus countless more options. That's why we have a parliament to do it for us.

Yet another poor example by you, you gave the poor example of the Vatican State recognizing the Republic of China as an offical nation to back up your argument which was just.. ahh disaster.

Does India have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iceland have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Burma have to cut ties with the EU?
Does Iran have to cut ties with the EU?
Do the 150+ countrys across the world have to cut ties with the EU just because they are not in it?

You and the European Union build up this imaginary image of the United Kingdom becoming isolationist if it leaves the European Union - it is absolute and utter propaganda. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Ukraine and other European nations are not in the European Union and are not isolationist, so no we would not have all those questions you put down on that - you make it up as you go along.

It is a very simple question, should the United Kingdom remain in the European Union? - that does not mean should we server ties with Europe, should we sever economic trading with Europe - it means as it says.

Most people think it's OK morally to download music off limewire. Most people think it's OK to break the speed limit. It doesn't mean it's okay or right.

democracy
/dimokrsi/

• noun (pl. democracies) a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.

Another poor example, i'm afraid Limewire does not make over 75%+ of the United Kingdoms' laws now, does it?.

i don't see how this government sending a commissioner to the EU isn't democratic as these MPs who therefore create the government send a commissioner to the EU. this is democratic. they are doing what the people want. if they aren't, why do people constantly vote in people that aren't doing what they want - ie, removing them from the European union.

The people do not vote soley on the European Union, and you know as well as I do that without proportional representation it is very hard for a new party to emerge and gain ground. Although I could say that the European Parliamentary Elections where UKIP beat Labour was the British verdict on the European Union, so can we pull out now that its been confimed in an election and not a referendum, just as you always stress is le-git?.

If the European Union is so confident of its popularity, and you are, why are you refusing to give the people of Europe and the United Kingdom a say? - infact I don't want a reply (not that I get one anyway) but I want you to now admit, that if the people of the United Kingdom were given a say on the European Union (along with many other countries) that most countrys would leave, especially the United Kingdom? - am I right(?) yes or no.

init and it was nice of major to keep us in in 1993 x

I have no idea why you think the my views must mirror those of the Conservative Party all the time, because I have criticised the Conservatives aswell about not taking action and I will criticise them exactly the same as I have criticised Labour over the EU when they are in office.

[LuketheDuke]

The referendum in the 70's represented the chance to move into the EEC which was then what we now know as the EU. Since then the EU has involved and taken on more duties, the EEC being one of them.

So technically we did vote yes for the EU so I dont get these anti arguments.

I still think Mr Undertaker needs to read the Lisbon Treaty otherwise how on earth can he create a credible argument against it. Thats like saying someone ive never met but only heard things about is an idiot.

Now that really does smack of arrogence.

[-:Undertaker:-]

The referendum in the 70's represented the chance to move into the EEC which was then what we now know as the EU. Since then the EU has involved and taken on more duties, the EEC being one of them.

So technically we did vote yes for the EU so I dont get these anti arguments.

I still think Mr Undertaker needs to read the Lisbon Treaty otherwise how on earth can he create a credible argument against it. Thats like saying someone ive never met but only heard things about is an idiot.

Now that really does smack of arrogence.

The-European-Economic-Community-is-not-the-European-Union.

We voted for a economic community called the EEC, not for a political, social and economic union called the European Union. On the issue of me reading the treaty - I do not need to read sheets and sheets of European propaganda thank you very much, I can see it installs a President and gives extra powers over taxation, abortion and a whole other manner of things, Europhiles have said it themselves, that the ultimate aim is to create a European Federal superstate. Caroline Flint, who was EU minister at the time, who argued for the Lisbon Treaty telling the public they could not make a correct decision themselves - she herself had not read the treaty.

Perhaps its time you got off your high horse and stop covering your ears, and maybe give the people a chance to give their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty and the European Union, instead of arrogantly dismissing and basis for a referendum to be cast.

[LuketheDuke]

The-European-Economic-Community-is-not-the-European-Union.

We voted for a economic community called the EEC, not for a political, social and economic union called the European Union. On the issue of me reading the treaty - I do not need to read sheets and sheets of European propaganda thank you very much, I can see it installs a President and gives extra powers over taxation, abortion and a whole other manner of things, Europhiles have said it themselves, that the ultimate aim is to create a European Federal superstate. Caroline Flint, who was EU minister at the time, who argued for the Lisbon Treaty telling the public they could not make a correct decision themselves - she herself had not read the treaty.

Perhaps its time you got off your high horse and stop covering your ears, and maybe give the people a chance to give their opinions on the Lisbon Treaty and the European Union, instead of arrogantly dismissing and basis for a referendum to be cast.

the EEC is now part of the EU, they arent seperate entities i tells ya!

you make the point of people not reading the Lisbon Treaty, wouldnt it be a good idea if we all sat down, read it and then discussed what we did and didnt like? this isnt even a for or against argument it kinda annoys me how everyone argues about it but dont know what its about, even its authors!

[-:Undertaker:-]

the EEC is now part of the EU, they arent seperate entities i tells ya!

you make the point of people not reading the Lisbon Treaty, wouldnt it be a good idea if we all sat down, read it and then discussed what we did and didnt like? this isnt even a for or against argument it kinda annoys me how everyone argues about it but dont know what its about, even its authors!

I cannot believe this, maybe i'll have to explain it like a simpleton.



The European Economic Community

• Economic co-operation

The European Union

• Political union
• Economic union
• Social union

China has remained the same entity for thousands of years, it once spanned across asia, decreased back to the eastern cost, expanded again inland, occupied the Kingdom of Tibet, lost control of Taiwan - it isnt the same as it was one thousand years ago, nor the same as it was back in 1900 yet it is totally different and has changed governmental system numerous times.

We do not read party manifestos' when we elect a party, so why would anybody want to read the Lisbon Treaty when everybody knows the basics of the treaty; creation of the presidential post, more control over taxation, abortion and working hours aloong with numerous other areas.

Instead of thinking of all the excuses on the planet to avoid giving the people a say on the referendum, why will you not accept the need the need and right for a referendum, and put your efforts into urging a yes vote, rather than trying to worm your way out in every manner possible? - do I sense a possible feeling of 'the British people would never fall for it?'(?).

[LuketheDuke]

I cannot believe this, maybe i'll have to explain it like a simpleton.





The European Economic Community

• Economic co-operation

The European Union

• Political union
• Economic union
• Social union

China has remained the same entity for thousands of years, it once spanned across asia, decreased back to the eastern cost, expanded again inland, occupied the Kingdom of Tibet, lost control of Taiwan - it isnt the same as it was one thousand years ago, nor the same as it was back in 1900 yet it is totally different and has changed governmental system numerous times.

We do not read party manifestos' when we elect a party, so why would anybody want to read the Lisbon Treaty when everybody knows the basics of the treaty; creation of the presidential post, more control over taxation, abortion and working hours aloong with numerous other areas.

Instead of thinking of all the excuses on the planet to avoid giving the people a say on the referendum, why will you not accept the need the need and right for a referendum, and put your efforts into urging a yes vote, rather than trying to worm your way out in every manner possible? - do I sense a possible feeling of 'the British people would never fall for it?'(?).

EEC is an abbreviation which usually refers to the European Economic Community, which has now become part of the European Union.


^^Im not going crazy when I see things like that then?

And people interested in politics read stuff like manifesto's and treaties, maybe not that berk who you mentioned but a lot do and analyse them accordingly. People interested in politics would also see the non binding manner of referenda and instead wait til the General Election next year and see what the major parties have to say about it.

End of the day you wont vote for a pro EU party as will a lot of other people, these votes will hope to seek representation for your views. This in turn can create resistance in government and be a lot more effective than a referendum.

[-:Undertaker:-]

EEC is an abbreviation which usually refers to the European Economic Community, which has now become part of the European Union.


^^Im not going crazy when I see things like that then?

And people interested in politics read stuff like manifesto's and treaties, maybe not that berk who you mentioned but a lot do and analyse them accordingly. People interested in politics would also see the non binding manner of referenda and instead wait til the General Election next year and see what the major parties have to say about it.

End of the day you wont for a pro EU party as will a lot of other people, these votes will hope to seek representation for your views. This in turn can create resistance in government and be a lot more effective than a referendum.

Totally ignoring my points, I am not talking about whether we call it EU, European Union, EEC, European Economic Community - I have clearly shown above how the EEC evolved into the European Union, covering areas which we did not expect or vote for when we voted for the EEC back in the 1970s'. A real reply on that would be warmly welcomed.

What do you propose then? - all people who do not read manifestos and treaties should have their democratic vote taken away because they do not understand it?. We do not need to analyse treaties or manifestos to form an opinon on something, otherwise if we did, nobody would ever form an opinon on anything.

I have not read the full books/events that formed Conservatism, yet I still know I am conservative in idealogy because I believe in the right of the individual, and the case for economic freedom along with political and social freedom. It does not mean I am any less a conservative than somebody who had read on them issues.

It will not be more effective than a referendum, you know as well as I know (so lets stop pretending) that politics swings in recent years, because the incumbent government has become unpopular, not because there has been a sudden mood swing/idealogical change amongst the public.

A referendum is a simple yes or no question, with a full campaign from both sides leading up to it. Of course you would do anything to avoid something like this because you know full well that the British people do not like the European Union, never have agreed to it and never ever will do.

[LuketheDuke]

Totally ignoring my points, I am not talking about whether we call it EU, European Union, EEC, European Economic Community - I have clearly shown above how the EEC evolved into the European Union, covering areas which we did not expect or vote for when we voted for the EEC back in the 1970s'. A real reply on that would be warmly welcomed.

What do you propose then? - all people who do not read manifestos and treaties should have their democratic vote taken away because they do not understand it?. We do not need to analyse treaties or manifestos to form an opinon on something, otherwise if we did, nobody would ever form an opinon on anything.

I have not read the full books/events that formed Conservatism, yet I still know I am conservative in idealogy because I believe in the right of the individual, and the case for economic freedom along with political and social freedom. It does not mean I am any less a conservative than somebody who had read on them issues.

It will not be more effective than a referendum, you know as well as I know (so lets stop pretending) that politics swings in recent years, because the incumbent government has become unpopular, not because there has been a sudden mood swing/idealogical change amongst the public.

A referendum is a simple yes or no question, with a full campaign from both sides leading up to it. Of course you would do anything to avoid something like this because you know full well that the British people do not like the European Union, never have agreed to it and never ever will do.

The EEC is part of the EU, you cant have one without the other so I think its a pretty sweet response to when you try and set them apart tyvm.

And no people dont have to read manifesto's etc and I never made the point that everyone should have to. But I do argue that if you want know something about something maybe you should consult the source first. Thats not even a political statement thats just simple criticism which maybe some MP's should try as well.

If referenda were statute maybe we could have them more but the fact is they arent so whats the point in demanding one? What I do know is I can vote on this issue if i so choose too and GE's facilitate democracy making it an outlet where I can truly express a grivience.

Im not arguing at you, I may not support a lot of things you say because they simply arent realistic but you've got to make do with the system your given. Otherwise become a revolutionary and buy a beret.