State of Management, Hiring, moderation etcetera

[Chippiewill]

Because the Welcome Committee thread has turned into a review of management I have decided to create a new thread so that thread can focus a bit more.

Here are what I believe to be the main points:

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.
e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.


I'll just quote some key points from the other thread:

I shall quite soon be jumping ship to CHF I think, with the recent appointment to the moderator position of someone who knows absolutely nothing about technology to the technology forum, it appears clear to me that the management of this forum lack the competency to perform a fair and rational job.

But hey, at least I get to **** about on CHF without having to worry what users are getting moderators spying on me trying to get me on something.

I shall be foruming as hard as always, putting my views and advice across as HxF crashes and burns as it is already slowly starting to do. Before it was just speculation and people getting laughed at for suggesting it. Now it's actually happening and it's quite fun to watch the users complain and nothing get done, so I'm gonna go ahead and throw my complaints in.

The server is a joke, nice 500 errors and timeouts, those optimisations SURE HELPED. Looks like it's boosting activity and uptime so much.

OThe staff, atmosphere of a nigh on totalitarian dictatorship and activity are all destroying this forum. And when you and your tiny views on how to manage a community finally widen enough to see what's going on, it'll be too late and everything you think it has been such a fantastic idea to have done will have all been for naught. You wont have anybody but the very few randomers coming in here, no regulars, no dedicated posters, nothing.

I don't have any responsibility, I have no addiction and no ties to this forum. You will criticise me and probably force upon me some sort of ridiculous post that attempts to debate what I have said.

Time and time again I have been right and this time is no different. I just like to do my research before posting things like this. So go ahead, criticise, flame and punish me, you'll only be re-enforcing what I've just said.

Quite the double-edged sword, running a forum. I have done all I can to attempt to open your eyes. It's your move, and I suspect you'll end up stumbling blind as always.

tl;dr:
server sucks, forum sucks, community is dying, forum is dying, activity is dying, management are blind and loving it.

Upper management's changed a lot since I was involved then lol

Let me quote Garion's PM

"Your obvious lack of faith in the ability of the committee to successfully achieve its aims suggests to me that you are no longer entirely suitable to the position." and the whole line had a hyper link to the PM.
Well done on making yourself look like a complete idiot by trying to act clever.

And wow, complete lack of faith? I suggested ideas to which neither James and Garion bothered replying to in the WC forums. Lack of faith? I think its them who cannot be bothered, not me. Oh what a surprise, most people are agreeing that its useless so remember if you are staff, never say a negative word or they will get rid of you.

Management needs to learn that whilst it's policy is not to have staff up to review by the forum users, users will leave due to bad decisions and for not being listened to, past management has had this view that they can ignore users on certain issues when they like and wont lose out from it and in some cases it must be done but, over do it and you end up with the draconian system that Habbox has become today where Management place power in those of their choosing regardless of public opinion. It has rubbed many users up the wrong way and leaves the forum in it's state today, declining.

[Jamesy]

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
I'd say from my perspective that it's only very rarely do we ignore users, usually simply because he who shouts loudest doesn't really represent the forum populace as a whole. I do admit I can be quick to say no and do a u-turn later when I've thought about it, so I apologise if this does occur.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
The only times I can remember closing threads were when public feedback threads turned personal against a new trialist, which wasn't fair on him. Theres a complaints for for that sort of issue or PMing members of gen / forum management too.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
Welcome committee was never a staff role and it clearly stated that if you turn away from being welcoming and behaved you can be removed. It's a rare circumstance and I've never thought to punish any of my staff for going against me in a feedback thread.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.
I wouldn't say rushed either. Admittedly mistakes were made but I trusted gut instinct on that one and I stand by it, next time around I will be making sure it is fairer though. Again I apologise for this.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
I'm well aware of this and I'm on your side! I do want to free up some of the red tape surrounding posting and on sunday you'll see my first attempts to get it right. Slow steps, but I do know what you mean.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy.
haha, I don't remember Nvr much

I hope these answers are satisfactory, I'm more than happy to build on them if you want

[Nixt]

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

I don't think anyone has said "we're not doing that because it is policy not to - please do refer me to where this has happened, as I am sure I can expand on it. As I said in the other thread, if you check the Development Announcements forum you will see that almost all of the Sunday Updates posted there a significant majority of the updates posted there were instigated by forum members. We are always keen to receive feedback and regularly act upon it (the most recent example that springs to mind is the comments regarding donations which instigated a discussion of substantial reform to the way donations are handled that should take place in the near future.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.

You are fully entitled to criticise management if that is what you want to do. However, I assume you are referring to my comments regarding the server. Pray tell how current Management are supposed to apply any changes to the server when the powers to do so are held exclusively by Jin? Allow me to clarify - we are not hiding behind Jin, merely Jin is a) the only individual with the relevant access and b) the only person with the relevant knowledge to edit the server and that leaves us powerless. Criticise us for this all you want, but there is literally nothing we can do about it.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.

Members of staff are not removed for criticising their department. The Welcome Committee is not a staff department, members are not staff and the Committee is not a staff department. Members of staff, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to criticise their department if they follow the proper channels.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

The recruitment of staff is not being rushed. The application procedure for any department is thorough and carefully administrated. You are clearly referring to the Apple situation, where a mistake was made on the length of time he had been a forum member. This was a mistake through miscounting the calendar (clearly quite a stupid mistake) but this does not indicate the hiring of staff is "rushed" and indeed, I do not regret this as Apple has more knowledge about the forum than some members who have been around for much longer and has proved himself, in the short time he has been a member, to be a valuable part of the community - the ideal Moderator.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away

It would make it far easier if you specified specific rules you think are over the top. That way I can respond to your feedback appropriately. Right now you are not telling me what rules are over the top - all of them? Some of them? I can then discuss how we could change these rules to make them less draconian.

As a starting point, on Sunday both the current pointless posting and bumping rules will be changed to make them more accommodating and less exorbitant.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy.

Unfortunately, nvr left, so we have to focus on ensuring the current Management meet the standards expected by members rather than dwelling on the past!

Thanks for the feedback, I look forward to your expansions on it and the contribution of other members too.

[Tintinnabulate]

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
I'm well aware of this and I'm on your side! I do want to free up some of the red tape surrounding posting and on sunday you'll see my first attempts to get it right. Slow steps, but I do know what you mean.

What a load of crap. If you believed that, then you wouldn't have gone "criticise mods and i will have you warned for pointless posting" in my threadin feedback. Its simply you going power mad and abusing it. Maybe you are unaware (although you were a smod then so unless you did **** all as a smod you should know this) that the rule was changed so if a new topic comes up as a link to a new post, we are free to discuss it. Maybe you do not look at feedback threads enough to see thats what happens frequently and thats why we have had some long feedback threads. It starts as one topic and goes through 10 topics producing ideas for all of them.

Like I said, its hypocritical for you to agree and create idiotic rules yourself in the previous thread.

@ Jamesy and Garion, stop using the "WC is not a staff role" excuse. You well know what he meant.
Also Jamesy, where did it say "and it clearly stated that if you turn away from being welcoming ", stop making up bull ****. It doesn't say it in any of the WC threads or PMs I received and do not bother editing them now as I have a copy of them all.
My thread did not turn away from being welcoming, I have always been polite to new members and if you look, only my replies were not robotic like "welcome, read the rules, enjoy". Mine tried to start a convo rather than tell them to read the rules etc bull crap. Besides the PM stated I was removed because of the thread so stop making up crap.

Enjoy.

---------- Post added 08-10-2010 at 07:55 PM ----------

It would make it far easier if you specified specific rules you think are over the top. That way I can respond to your feedback appropriately. Right now you are not telling me what rules are over the top - all of them? Some of them? I can then discuss how we could change these rules to make them less draconian.

I sent you a long PM regarding that with suggestions yet I didn't get a reply so :S

[Nixt]

Given that it's not a staff role, which was made clear, I can post the PM:

Hi Saurav,

Just to let you know that I have decided to remove you from the Welcome Committee. Right now, in its early stages, the Committee needs keen and positive people who strive to ensure that it is successful.

Unfortunately, your recent persistent negativity around the forum and your obvious lack of faith in the ability of the committee to successfully achieve its aims suggests to me that you are no longer entirely suitable to the position.

Kind regards,

Nixt

------

I stand by it, you may disagree, but I can't help but feel that someone who wants the Welcome Committee to be abolished isn't really suitable for it. We want people on the Committee who are keen to make it try and work, and unfortunately you are not in the mindset and that is clear. Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this matter any further. If you disagree with it then you can contact either xxMATTGxx or Jin with an appeal.

Saurav, the feedback you have to offer on the rules (RE: the PM you sent me) is really relevant and important I feel. I'm just going to ask here, can we please not turn this thread into a discussion on your removal from the Committee. It will make absolutely no difference, if you want to complain about it Matt and Jin are there. This thread could well reap some excellent feedback so let's keep it focused on the problems we're currently encountering rather than your removal from the Committee. I'll reiterate: posting about it here is not going to change what happened, and I look forward to your feedback on the rules.

[Chippiewill]

Review of Management Disallowed:
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=611046

I know it's old, but I'm working from the back.

The recruitment of staff is not being rushed. The application procedure for any department is thorough and carefully administrated. You are clearly referring to the Apple situation, where a mistake was made on the length of time he had been a forum member. This was a mistake through miscounting the calendar (clearly quite a stupid mistake) but this does not indicate the hiring of staff is "rushed" and indeed, I do not regret this as Apple has more knowledge about the forum than some members who have been around for much longer and has proved himself, in the short time he has been a member, to be a valuable part of the community - the ideal Moderator.

If a mistake is only EVER made it is due to it being rushed, when moderators are hired their applications must be double checked, triple checked, quadruple checked and checked until you find a mistake. Also I am not just referring to Apple, if you had read my quotes you would have noticed someone becoming a moderator in a forum where it probably isn't appropriate.

You are fully entitled to criticise management if that is what you want to do. However, I assume you are referring to my comments regarding the server. Pray tell how current Management are supposed to apply any changes to the server when the powers to do so are held exclusively by Jin? Allow me to clarify - we are not hiding behind Jin, merely Jin is a) the only individual with the relevant access and b) the only person with the relevant knowledge to edit the server and that leaves us powerless. Criticise us for this all you want, but there is literally nothing we can do about it.

Actually here I am referring to incidents in the past where members of management are criticised and the thread is almost always locked right away. By being management they are in the spotlight, as well as praise they must be prepared to be criticised.

Members of staff are not removed for criticising their department. The Welcome Committee is not a staff department, members are not staff and the Committee is not a staff department. Members of staff, on the other hand, are perfectly entitled to criticise their department if they follow the proper channels.

Ok, but they are still a group endorsed by the management and someone being removed from that group hoping to improve it certainly isn't fair.


Also a new point:

Complaints forum - Why can only STAFF reply, this means that the OP has little help with their argument trying to improve the forum and it really means that a key point could be missed as staff all pile in to batter the OP down.

@above What a load of nonsense, seriously, he tries to improve something and he's removed and you pass it off as negative attitude, from his screenies it looked like he was the only active member?!?!

Edit: In fact, it's even an example of a rushed decision, he was removed after just a couple of hours?

Saurav, the feedback you have to offer on the rules (RE: the PM you sent me) is really relevant and important I feel. I'm just going to ask here, can we please not turn this thread into a discussion on your removal from the Committee. It will make absolutely no difference, if you want to complain about it Matt and Jin are there. This thread could well reap some excellent feedback so let's keep it focused on the problems we're currently encountering rather than your removal from the Committee. I'll reiterate: posting about it here is not going to change what happened, and I look forward to your feedback on the rules.

It is not about his removal specifically, it is that a member of any group endorsed or run by the Management can be closed for a member criticising its current iteration openly to get other people's opinions. If I'm a DJ, the server goes down and I complain openly why should I be removed?

[Inseriousity.]

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'

I don't really think it's because of policy, it's because they have to look at other factors before coming to a decision. It's a bit like the government; you can go to them with a suggestion but that doesn't mean they'll implement it because they have to look at the bigger picture which some members do not always do when they suggest something.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.

I've never really been a fan of general/forum management closing threads because it's normally better if they're just left to 'die out' and other members might want to give their opinion to the topic. Obviously, their reasoning is that they're not going to change their minds and I suppose it does seem fruitless to keep a topic open if it's not going to change (this is only for a minority of suggestions though) but it does come across as a bit 'we're in charge, shut up and do as we say.' Not the intended intention but that attitude does come across. However, just because management say no to suggestions doesn't mean they don't listen however they have a lot more factors to consider (the effect on staff in the dept. etc) before they can make changes.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.

This isn't really true; I made a thread in the HxHD staff forum with some suggestions about how to improve and I wasn't fired from the team. Personally, I don't think Saurav should have been removed but your statement seems to suggest it happens across all departments but it's an exception to the norm.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

Hiring of staff isn't rushed and tbh I wish it was quicker! There's a whole lot of hoops to jump through. I'm only comps manager and I imagine that there are a lot more hoops for the moderation department as it's a more "important" job (comps still rule though, woo).

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away

I agree. I also think that new members are seen as an 'easy target' by the moderators to boost their logs. It's been a while since I was there but there were a lot of posts with 'this member's signature is too big' etc and 9 times out of ten, they'd be new users because obviously, they don't know the rules that well (I don't know anyone who actually reads their welcome PM or the rules, I certainly didn't anyway!).

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.

A weird fantasy but I suppose you can keep dreaming


Overall though, I don't think management (particularly forum management) are given enough credit for the hard job they choose to do voluntarily. It's very easy to criticise and moan 'oh he's useless' (not saying you are!) but they have to make quick decisions over what is possible, what isn't possible, what can improve the forum, what won't improve the forum. I stick with the philosophy that you can't please everyone and when you try, you end up pleasing no-one. Management try their best to please the majority but they also make mistakes. It's a sign of a good manager if they do not let their mistakes get the better of them but come out stronger and better than before and I think Habbox management are quite good at that. Not perfect but quite good

[AgnesIO]

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
As far as I am concerned management listen to users FAR more than they did at one point.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
Management CAN be criticised by users, however not too much. If I made a thread criticising a user it would be closed. So I don't see why this should be any different.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
I am unsure about this, as I do not see the full reason why Saurav was removed. However I don't think something that happened to one user is a particularly fair reason to moan.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

I cannot BELIEVE, people are still moaning about the Apple thing. Seriously stop moaning, and grow up. Apple is doing a fine job, and I wish him all the best.

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
Rules are quite strict, but on the other hand I like the fact that as a user, if you behave you know you won't get moaned at, and users who are rude etc can be stopped, without it being seen as 'harsh'. I think some rules do need to be relaxed though.

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.
Not even going to bother replying to this.

[Nixt]

Review of Management Disallowed:
http://www.habboxforum.com/showthread.php?t=611046

I know it's old, but I'm working from the back.

Any recent examples? That was then, this is now. Things have changed considerably! However a thread singling out and criticising a single individual isn't allowed - that is tantamount to bullying, is it not? If I created a thread in spam and said "Corrrr, that Chippiewill is awful" and people started posting saying "yeah I agree blah blah", I think it is fair to say that removing it would be the right thing to do. The same applies when people are quite rudely and indeed unfairly criticising an individual member of Management. A thread saying "XX is crap they need to be fired" is really demeaning and can upset a person who may well have put a lot of effort into Habbox. A much fairer, and correct route to take would be to PM their immediate manager who will always take into account what you have said and deal with it appropriately.

If a mistake is only EVER made it is due to it being rushed, when moderators are hired their applications must be double checked, triple checked, quadruple checked and checked until you find a mistake. Also I am not just referring to Apple, if you had read my quotes you would have noticed someone becoming a moderator in a forum where it probably isn't appropriate.

Before being hired people are checked over and over, by myself and their Manager. It was a one off and inevitably people slip through the net sometimes. I have accepted that as my mistake and will bear it in mind in the future, although as I say I do think Apple was an excellent appointment. If you believe an individual isn't appropriate to a specific Forum - you need only contact Jamesy and explain why you don't think this is the case, and justify this with evidence, and then this will be addressed. Merely saying "OMG XX IS CRAP AND SHOULDN'T BE IN XY FORUM" is not really justifying your reasoning. People can often be successful in forums they do not necessarily frequent. We do strive to ensure members with relevant knowledge are placed in relevant forums, this isn't always possible! The key thing is Moderators are here to enforce the rules, their knowledge isn't always relevant. Providing they can spot a rule break and deal with it appropriately, we can be content with that until someone with relevant expertise can be appointed there. In some cases, we will have one person with relevant knowledge and occasionally someone without. Additionally a Moderator who isn't sure about a certain topic can always contact those in the know to take appropriate action.

If you feel that a Moderator is failing their mandate because of the forum they are in, please contact James. I know he would be keen to hear from you.

Actually here I am referring to incidents in the past where members of management are criticised and the thread is almost always locked right away. By being management they are in the spotlight, as well as praise they must be prepared to be criticised.

As I said, singling out individuals is unfair and tantamount to bullying. Remember Management here are not adults and they are volunteers. Criticising them as an individual can often upset them, considerably, and we won't allow that. You can however complain about individuals via the relevant channels. We're not going to allow you to post a thread saying "Nixt is an awful AGM!", because that might upset people and in addition these results in people jumping on the ol' bandwagon and unjustifiably being rude to people.

Ok, but they are still a group endorsed by the management and someone being removed from that group hoping to improve it certainly isn't fair.

See my reply to Saurav.
Also a new point:

Complaints forum - Why can only STAFF reply, this means that the OP has little help with their argument trying to improve the forum and it really means that a key point could be missed as staff all pile in to batter the OP down.

Only the Forum and General Management can reply, and this is because it is a complaint. When you complain to say, your ISP, do you invite all the other customers to join in? Complaints are problems individuals are experiencing. If it is a broad issue, they can post it in feedback.

@above What a load of nonsense, seriously, he tries to improve something and he's removed and you pass it off as negative attitude, from his screenies it looked like he was the only active member?!?!

Edit: In fact, it's even an example of a rushed decision, he was removed after just a couple of hours?

Not discussing this, as per my above post, Saurav can contact Jin / Matt directly.

[rnix]

a) Management are not listening to forum users on many forum issues due to 'policy'
management are better. they used to be ****.

b) Management is not allowed to be criticized by users because "it's Jin's job", forum management specifically will close any thread putting members of their department under review.
You can always send a PM to someone regarding staff.

c) Members of departments are being removed from those departments if they criticise it.
Someone else said it and i cba to quote it.

d) Hiring of staff is being rushed, checks are not being made to ensure that the moderator applying is knowledgeable / fits all criterion.

I cannot BELIEVE, people are still moaning about the Apple thing. Seriously stop moaning, and grow up. Apple is doing a fine job, and I wish him all the best. << what he said

e) Rules are WAAY over the top and are pushing potential users away
Rules are quite strict, but on the other hand I like the fact that as a user, if you behave you know you won't get moaned at, and users who are rude etc can be stopped, without it being seen as 'harsh'. I think some rules do need to be relaxed though. << what he said

f) Nvr should be put back on the throne, ok, perhaps that's just my weird fantasy, although, if I'm choosing then FlyingJesus, JewishBear and Mentor would be good also.
Not even going to bother replying to this. << what he said



Yeah, i really can't be bothered to read all the threads from different managers probs defending everything.
I know i moan alot but really this thread is tad ott.

taaaaaaaaaa