That pointless and shameful war

[HotelUser]

Actually if I had to live in any of those countries I would genuinely cry and contemplate commuting suicide. We probably dislike North Korea in our society because they're arguably more extreme than all the regimes you've posted (not saying I wholeheartedly agree that they are but that many people would argue that):

- North Korea spent over 2% of their GDP on a hotel, and they only have 1 to 7 tourists in the country at once, who are escorted around the country the entire time they're here, and only one floor of the hotel at any given time.
- North Korea built really fancy houses right next to South Korea, spent millions on these houses just to make themselves look better than South, and nobody lives in these houses, they're only decorative outside and are bare inside.
- You need a picture of the "great leader" who's still considered North Korea's leader (although he's dead) in every room. You're not allowed to block these pictures and stand infront of them.
- You can buy radios but you cannot change the stations, only the volume, can't turn it off or mute it there's one station and the "dear leader" talks on it.
- If someone commits a crime everyone they know and their entire family gets sent to prison and labour camps. Crimes in North Korea aren't often what we would even consider crimes.
- There's a museum every North Korean is required to visit atleast one time in their life and it has gifts given to the dear and great leader from other countries thanking him, all these gifts are fake.
- Near the border between North and South Korea North Korea puts its most fit and biggest soldiers there to make them look stronger than South Koreans.
- Dear Leader kidnapped a South Korean film director to make a movie for North Korea.

And so it's immensely easy to see why we hate North Korean most, not necessarily because they're more harsh to their citizens than many countries, but because they're just the most stupid in terms of what they do, and their ideas as well as their beliefs retaining to the rest of the world. You should really watch The Vice Guide to North Korea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ixGYzbLz0) if you haven't because it's just shocking.


It's easy to accuse our governments of having second agendas and in the mindset of some politicians I think it's probably true. But given that it's the best we have right now I wont say much here. The bottom line is we need to minimize foreign deaths and suffering from lack of rights imposed by foreign governments unjustly. Even if we're just doing this and having impact on some peoples' lives in those places we're still making a contribution and we're still making a difference. If you're seriously going to sit here and tell me our soldiers, the people who actually chose to go into the profession and the people actually over there, are fighting with the sole purpose of bettering their home nation and not for humanitarian rights than I think you couldn't be more wrong.

If you're taking a stance that we're in there in self pursuit and pick and choose our battles I'd say that's a fair statement and I'd only disagree on pulling out because no matter how small we're still making a difference to some people by being involved for whatever reason.

If you're taking a stance that we should mind our own business in every matter then I think you're dead wrong. I think as modern and developed countries with legal systems which uphold the rights and freedoms of our people we have a responsibility to intervene in international scenarios where the rights and freedoms of others are infringed upon. If it was fiscally possible I'd say it's a shame if we didn't flatten Saudi Arabia, China and North Korea's political schemes in a single swipe.

[-:Undertaker:-]

Actually if I had to live in any of those countries I would genuinely cry and contemplate commuting suicide. We probably dislike North Korea in our society because they're arguably more extreme than all the regimes you've posted (not saying I wholeheartedly agree that they are but that many people would argue that):

-All bad aspects of North Korean regime listed here-

I'm not disputing at all how evil the North Korean regime is, i've read up on most of those things before and i'm well aware how the regime works and what dangers it poses. I would however, point out that North Korea is for on a par with Saudi Arabia which is on more or less the same level as North Korea in terms of how terrible its regime is.

So I would ask again, why is pro-western Saudi Arabia any different from anti-western North Korea?

And so it's immensely easy to see why we hate North Korean most, not necessarily because they're more harsh to their citizens than many countries, but because they're just the most stupid in terms of what they do, and their ideas as well as their beliefs retaining to the rest of the world. You should really watch The Vice Guide to North Korea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ixGYzbLz0) if you haven't because it's just shocking.

As I stated above, I am well aware of the socialist North Korean regime with its human experimentation, political prison camps and luxary golf courses coupled with trains for the Dear Leader and I do not need convincing as to how evil and demented the leaders of that nation are along with the suffering of the North Korean people. This however does not answer my question, which is why is it that the likes of the anti-western regimes which we consider brutal such as Iran and North Korea are treated in a totally different manner to the pro-western brutual regimes of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Libya (pre-Arab Spring), Iraq (pre-Gulf War) and many more.

It's easy to accuse our governments of having second agendas and in the mindset of some politicians I think it's probably true. But given that it's the best we have right now I wont say much here. The bottom line is we need to minimize foreign deaths and suffering from lack of rights imposed by foreign governments unjustly. Even if we're just doing this and having impact on some peoples' lives in those places we're still making a contribution and we're still making a difference. If you're seriously going to sit here and tell me our soldiers, the people who actually chose to go into the profession and the people actually over there, are fighting with the sole purpose of bettering their home nation and not for humanitarian rights than I think you couldn't be more wrong.

What propaganda the home nation dishes out upon the troops and the public is not the problem, the problem is that troops are being sent to their deaths on the pretence that they are there for the people and in the interests of the United States, the United Kingdom and NATO - this is a lie. If our politicians and yourself were honest with us, and explained that the reason why we are involved in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan were the issues of politics, corporate interests and oil then thats fine by me - it would be interesting to see how long our governments would last.

But the facts are that the truth isn't told, and instead when topics such as this are discussed the likes of yourself repeat well known facts telling us that we are there 'to help the people' - this is false. We are there based on corporate interests, not the interests of the country (see the debt of the United States for a glaring example) and politics, its as simple as that.

I wouldn't die for this nor do I think others should die for this, why do you think otherwise?

If you're taking a stance that we're in there in self pursuit and pick and choose our battles I'd say that's a fair statement and I'd only disagree on pulling out because no matter how small we're still making a difference to some people by being involved for whatever reason.

If we have a moral obligation to help others, why do you yourself not volunteer?

Its all very well saying this but is Iraq really better off post-Saddam? I think not as do many Iraqi people including the two million+ who have not returned to the country. It must also be noted, often this utopian idea of 'helping people by establishing a democracy' is rejected; in Palestine for example the people have opted for Hamas, a militant group with old style Islamic rules placed upon the people.

As Peter Hitchens comments, to sort out corruption in Afghanistan is like trying to drain the Pacific with a teaspoon.

If you're taking a stance that we should mind our own business in every matter then I think you're dead wrong. I think as modern and developed countries with legal systems which uphold the rights and freedoms of our people we have a responsibility to intervene in international scenarios where the rights and freedoms of others are infringed upon. If it was fiscally possible I'd say it's a shame if we didn't flatten Saudi Arabia, China and North Korea's political schemes in a single swipe.

Because like it or not, you cannot open a government in a box as the battles in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan show. If you look at history, you will actually find that the best way to achieve and spread values are by keeping our face out of it and simply trading along with setting a good example. Think its all hogwash? examples of this include South Korea which was under a military dictatorship which eventually opened up with free trade. Vietnam is another example, once relations were normalised with the regime it has opened up enormously. The Republic of China (Taiwan) is another example along with the Peoples Republic of China which is currently on its way to eventual democracy, both countries have opened up in line with the west opening up with them.

If we trade with nations, set a good example and don't support the then these regimes eventually crumble, and crumble they will without the blowback here on British or western soil which we keep seeing when we become embroiled in the affairs of foreign nations; the Taliban, Gaddafi with Lockerbie.

[DPS]

As a friend of many soldiers in the army, i cant honestly say, even they dont know where there in afghan anymore, it's like a game, go out on petrol, and maybe you wont come back, maybe you will.

[Shar]

As a friend of many soldiers in the army, i cant honestly say, even they dont know where there in afghan anymore, it's like a game, go out on petrol, and maybe you wont come back, maybe you will.

If you don't mind me asking, why do they do it then?

[DPS]

If you don't mind me asking, why do they do it then?

Because its a job, trust me if i could be doing it i would, but my left eye is to weak for service.

[Shar]

Because its a job, trust me if i could be doing it i would, but my left eye is to weak for service.

Even if you're risking your life and you haven't a clue what the war is for?

[dbgtz]

Even if you're risking your life and you haven't a clue what the war is for?

Some people do just do it as a job with extra risks I'm guessing, I doubt a lot of them see it as a patriotic/moral thing they're doing, just a service they're being paid for. And tbh they probably like the thrill the job brings, adrenaline and that.

[DPS]

Even if you're risking your life and you haven't a clue what the war is for?

Life doesnt matter, you can die at any time in your life, why not do it doing something you enjoy? that's how i see it, if they didnt fight for there country someone else would so might aswell do it. It's also the thrill they get.