What people are underpaid/overpaid?

[Kardan]

Care to explain?



I hope i don't sound rude when i say this but I honestly cannot see how you find that complicated? I've done mathematical modeling projects for real life situations that were far more complicated than this and i did them successfully back when i was only 17 and hadn't even finished secondary school yet.




The first bit sounds fine and simple enough to implement. Not too sure what you mean by the bit in bold though.



That's why i said in my first post that the unions wont condone it. Reason? A hell of a lot of teachers now have to try harder.

The problem is with mathematical modelling is that there are many assumptions made about the situation to make the calculations much easier. In real life, you can't ignore these since they have so much impact on individual situations.

And by the part in bold, what if you have two teachers that are new to teaching, each have taught for just a year. One is a good teacher, but got given a string of bottom set classes and all performed badly with a hard foundation paper, whereas the other is a crap teacher, didn't teach very well but all his classes fluked the exam with an easy higher paper.

That's just two teachers for one year, as you said, it should be looked at over many years, but given that there are 438,000 teachers in England alone, there will be some people that have this happen to them year after year through no fault on their own.

Also with this system, what happens to teachers that go on maternity leave for an extended amount of time? Will they get a bonus for somebody elses work? What about substitute teachers, do they not get a bonus? And what about classes that have multiple teachers? Do they divide their bonus by the number of classes they've taught between them?

As I've said before, there's so many individual situations that no system can fully cover, and even if there was, the grounds of judgement (test performance) isn't even that strong. You can't truly test a teachers ability for high grade performance without top, top students. Just like you can't expect an F1 driver to set quick lap times in a Ford Escort, or somebody in the army to take down multiple enemies with a handgun.

[Mikey]

Footballers and celebrities definitely overpaid.

Nurses, teachers, military etc are underpaid.

[Kardan]

Footballers and celebrities definitely overpaid.

Nurses, teachers, military etc are underpaid.

Why do you think teachers are underpaid?

[Mikey]

Why do you think teachers are underpaid?

I just feel that they work a good amount of hours at school and also have to do work when home aswell including planning classes for the whole week and doing marking for god knows how many classes. They also have to put up with cheeky and horrible children practically every single day.

I think teachers do alot for the pupils and actually take their time to explain things. Quite a few of the teachers at my school let you come before school a good hour before school and what time you want after school to help you do work and other stuff like applications and CVs if needed. If there wasn't teachers to support me and push me through school life then I wouldn't be where I am today tbh.

(well the teachers when I was at school)

[Kardan]

I just feel that they work a good amount of hours at school and also have to do work when home aswell including planning classes for the whole week and doing marking for god knows how many classes. They also have to put up with cheeky and horrible children practically every single day.

I think teachers do alot for the pupils and actually take their time to explain things. Quite a few of the teachers at my school let you come before school a good hour before school and what time you want after school to help you do work and other stuff like applications and CVs if needed. If there wasn't teachers to support me and push me through school life then I wouldn't be where I am today tbh.

(well the teachers when I was at school)

I agree with you that teachers do a lot of hard work then most don't think of, but... isn't that what they get paid for anyway? Where would the government find the money to give a pay rise to every teacher?

[Lewis]

doctors, surgeons and so forth are all underpaid compared to footballers...

[Eoin247]

Children - scratch that, PEOPLE - are different not only in ability but also learning style, attention to detail, willingness to co-operate, desire to learn, respect for authority, personal issues, and a whole range of everything else that affects ones learning. To properly gauge a teacher's influence on a class you'd need to know everything about every student as well as having close monitoring of the classroom at all times, which is clearly absurd. Otherwise it's a system of estimates and misinformation which through clerical error or simply pupil disobedience could mean the difference between a teacher being able to support their family or not. It's a highly unnecessary idea with no real bonuses to it since it would cost astronomical amounts more to properly implement it than to continue as things are (or even give teachers a raise nationally) as well as making the teaching profession an extremely risky career that relies on the clientele (ie pupils) rather than the actual abilities of the teacher.

In short, it's ******* stupid

I've pretty much replied to the point already. Adding in (a ton) of emphasizing words and throwing in '******* stupid' does not make it a new argument. Fact is a good teacher can improve any class to at least some extent, while a bad teacher will do the opposite.

The problem is with mathematical modelling is that there are many assumptions made about the situation to make the calculations much easier. In real life, you can't ignore these since they have so much impact on individual situations.

And by the part in bold, what if you have two teachers that are new to teaching, each have taught for just a year. One is a good teacher, but got given a string of bottom set classes and all performed badly with a hard foundation paper, whereas the other is a crap teacher, didn't teach very well but all his classes fluked the exam with an easy higher paper.

That's just two teachers for one year, as you said, it should be looked at over many years, but given that there are 438,000 teachers in England alone, there will be some people that have this happen to them year after year through no fault on their own.

Also with this system, what happens to teachers that go on maternity leave for an extended amount of time? Will they get a bonus for somebody elses work? What about substitute teachers, do they not get a bonus? And what about classes that have multiple teachers? Do they divide their bonus by the number of classes they've taught between them?

As I've said before, there's so many individual situations that no system can fully cover, and even if there was, the grounds of judgement (test performance) isn't even that strong. You can't truly test a teachers ability for high grade performance without top, top students. Just like you can't expect an F1 driver to set quick lap times in a Ford Escort, or somebody in the army to take down multiple enemies with a handgun.

I've said all i could to your points at this stage and we are just going back and forth rewording the same stuff now.

I'll conclude by saying this. I believe that you are making it sound far more complicated than it would actualy be. Sure it will be complicated to some degree, but the most rewarding things in life tend to be the most complicated to achieve. Just think about the complicated technology that allows you to create your next post!

[FlyingJesus]

You haven't covered that point at all, you've been saying that paychecks that rely on generalisations based on wide groupings are a good idea and it's been clearly shown that they aren't. If you'd care to actually respond to what I've said rather than lying that would be fabulous.

[Eoin247]

You haven't covered that point at all, you've been saying that paychecks that rely on generalisations based on wide groupings are a good idea and it's been clearly shown that they aren't. If you'd care to actually respond to what I've said rather than lying that would be fabulous.

I wasn't going to post again. But your attempt to start making this personal by calling me a lier made me reconsider. Im not going to throw insults, but i will give an answer one last time .

Firstly i repeatedly said there are exceptions in extreme cases.

Secondly i said earlier 'Of course each case is different as is every single thing in life, but you don't need to have a thousand different situations individually inspected. If that were the case then it would be impossible to tax people (which is many multiple times more complicated)' - Which answers your point about people being different so this idea wont work.

So i wasnt lying. I know your not going to apologize but it suppose it doesn't matter.

" generalisations based on wide groupings " - That phrase :L

( im on my tablet and some of the font colours look wierd, apologies if its hard to read where i pasted my post)

Anyway, ill leave it at that. If you bring up something new i might reply, but i'm not repeating my argument over and over again.

[FlyingJesus]

You don't need to repeat your argument again and again - it's flat. You absolutely would need individual cases to be thoroughly dealt with because "better" learning is not quantifiable whereas tax brackets quite clearly are, and without it being so over-regulated that it renders itself pointless it would be highly discriminatory and make the job far too risky for most to consider. That, by the way, is not you covering the point at all; it's just you using a false equivalence and ignoring the entire notion of humanity, so yep lying. Quite right, I shan't apologise.

"That phrase" isn't really that laughable, it's making a distinction between close variables (like grouping together wines from certain regions) and wide variables (like grouping together every single child in the country based on whether or not they're disabled)