Tonight at 8 o'clock on BBC One - Challenger's Debate (last one of the campaign)

[FlyingJesus]

The audience was not in tune with the general public at all

No-one is, there's almost no such thing as a true popular consensus in the UK if there were we wouldn't be having these back-and-forth discussions with the exact same points being repeated all the time... no matter how much cherrypicking a buzzfeed "journalist" does

[-:Undertaker:-]

Yes, immigration does contribute to 'crowding' of services such as NHS, housing - but it's not the sole problem.

The data from mid 2014 shows that in one year the population increased by 400,000 people - natural change accounted for 212,100 people, net migration accounted for 183,400 people.

So yes, you could say 200,000 houses a year might not work but it is worth remembering that we probably don't need 400,000 new houses for 400,000 people.

The net figure is near 300,000 now. Now just imagine if that graph was back to pre-1997 levels what pressure that would take off housing and services.

Births within the United Kingdom are easier to plan for in that when somebody is born they won't be buying or in need of a social home for around 20 years, they also won't need high school places until a decade later and so on. With natural births, you can more or less predict and plan ahead for schools, homes and hospitals as the birth rate remains more or less static. Government spending is allocated years in advance and thus can relieve any population explosions.

With mass immigration you can't. More to the point, much of the increase in the birth rate itself comes from former immigrants who are now British subjects so even if you built 300,000 homes a year just to cope with those coming in, you would soon find yourself grappling with high birth rates among immigrants who are younger. Contrast this with many who emigrate from the country who tend to be wealthy and past the age of having children.

I think I'd be able to like Farage more if he just talked about what he would do after immigration. Let's say he stopped migration completely even though that's completely unlikely. He is still have a population change of over 200,000 each year - what is he going to do then? I just think he talks as if it's the centre of all problems, and in this case - it's not even half the problem.

An influx of 200,000 to 300,000 people isn't "half the problem" when Sturgeon and Miliband are talking about 200,000 homes a year?

In terms of housing post-controlled borders, he said what he would do. A brownfield building revolution and grants to have brownfield land, usually in inner cities like my home of Liverpool, decontaminated so that developers will build on them again. Developers prefer green belt land as it is cheap to build on yet we end up destroying our countryside as well as creating these gigantic urban sprawls far away from jobs. Get building on the brownfield sites in inner cities again.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1429096952 Page 32.

Now if they got into office and broke all their promises like Labour and Tories do and came up with naff excuses then sure, I would be posting alongside you on this forum berating them for it. But until then, they are the only ones who are prepared to talk about the elephant in the room which is mass immigration that is running between 200k and 300k people coming in a year: and all need places to live.

No-one is, there's almost no such thing as a true popular consensus in the UK if there were we wouldn't be having these back-and-forth discussions with the exact same points being repeated all the time... no matter how much cherrypicking a buzzfeed "journalist" does

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

On railways and the NHS I can easily admit that I am in the minority when it comes to public opinion.

[MKR&*42]

Seemed like a fairly anti-UKIP audience, to be honest. Also noticed at the end when Sturgeon, Wood, Bennett and Miliband went over to the audience, Farage appeared to just walk off. Having said that, as I say, the audience wasn't exactly in favour of UKIP!

Yes I noticed that too. Found it quite shameful really as they moaned when actual, logical points about immigration are brought up (e.g. "Less migration = less housing demand") instead of listening to the points being made.

[The Don]

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

On railways and the NHS I can easily admit that I am in the minority when it comes to public opinion.

You're actually in the minority on the EU. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Brussels.html

[FlyingJesus]

There do exist consensus on issues in Britain.

On the EU, immigration and military adventures overseas for example Britons are in tune with me by a large margin.

lol do you actually believe this despite the massive majority of literate people being critical of UKIP policies? And before you cite a poll that less than 1% of the population was invited to take part in (or another buzzfeed article), note that agreeing that immigration is sometimes a worry is not the same as wanting to stop it outright

[-:Undertaker:-]

You're actually in the minority on the EU. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Brussels.html

I mean in terms of euroscepticism.

There's overwhelming support from the public for wanting powers brought back and no more powers given over.

lol do you actually believe this despite the massive majority of literate people being critical of UKIP policies? And before you cite a poll that less than 1% of the population was invited to take part in (or another buzzfeed article), note that agreeing that immigration is sometimes a worry is not the same as wanting to stop it outright

Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

[FlyingJesus]

Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

Five-year ban on unskilled migrants coming in to the UK from the UKIP manifesto, which you are planning to vote for. Well done on dodging the actual point as usual though, and then pretending that someone else is discussing things improperly. Bravo

[The Don]

I mean in terms of euroscepticism.

There's overwhelming support from the public for wanting powers brought back and no more powers given over.



Who wants to stop it outright?

Cite me where I have ever argued stopping immigration outright. Just stop twisting the argument all the time.

lol isn't one of UKIP's key policies a 5 year freeze on immigration...

[-:Undertaker:-]

Five-year ban on unskilled migrants coming in to the UK from the UKIP manifesto, which you are planning to vote for. Well done on dodging the actual point as usual though, and then pretending that someone else is discussing things improperly. Bravo

lol isn't one of UKIP's key policies a 5 year freeze on immigration...

That isn't banning immigration outright like Tom claimed.

• Skilled workers would still be able to come.
• University students would be classed separate to overall immigrant figures.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1429295050 Page 10.

[The Don]

That isn't banning immigration outright like Tom claimed.

• Skilled workers would still be able to come.
• University students would be classed separate to overall immigrant figures.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1429295050 Page 10.

Except he didn't say ban he said stop which is completely accurate.