The BNP - Good or Bad?

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Its aimed at teenagers, but many members who join in 2004-2005 aren't now. There are more females in the country than males, I am going to assume you are a female and so is everyone I see on the street.

And he is not shouting directly outside their houses, but what he says is on TV and that is being shown on most TV's in this country, so he indirectly is.

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Oh my god are you actually serious with that first line?

He is not saying it outside peoples houses though, and if you see something on television that upsets you (abortion programs, Nick Griffin, surgery programs) then you pick up the remote, and turn the television off.

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Even though its not direct and as obvious hatred as racism or homophobia its still going to effect people in the same way is it not? Many older people talk of how they saw their families murdered by the Nazis and their skulls crushed, what gives ANYONE the right to bring this back up and torment them with it saying it never happened.

You know after camps were liberated they took people from the local villages down to view the bodies. It is impossible to say it never happened when there are hundreds of thousands of people who have seen the atrocities first hand and even some who committed it.

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I didn't say it never happened, as I agree with you, the holocaust did happen.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Nick Griffin was not being racist/homophobic at that demonstration as no charges were brought against him, so i'll ask again; is Nick Griffin standing outside peoples' houses shouting the holocaust didn't happen?

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And i'll answer again, despite you just quoting my answer :S No, not deliberately. But the fact that he seems to think its ok to state that millions did not die at the hands of the Nazis publicly, he might aswell be shouting at these people because the result is the same.

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Originally Posted by Tash.

And i'll answer again, despite you just quoting my answer :S No, not deliberately. But the fact that he seems to think its ok to state that millions did not die at the hands of the Nazis publicly, he might aswell be shouting at these people because the result is the same.

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That is his historical opinion, I don't agree with him and neither do you or most other people. It is not my right or your right to take away his right to an opinion on that subject, as long as he is not preaching hatred towards jewish people.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Oh my god are you actually serious with that first line?

He is not saying it outside peoples houses though, and if you see something on television that upsets you (abortion programs, Nick Griffin, surgery programs) then you pick up the remote, and turn the television off.

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Maybe my examples are extreme, but its exactly what you are doing when you make the statements you have been doing.

Again, when Tash and I explained that I meant 1000 people outside you house IN REAL LIFE, you refused to answer it.

And thats fine, they should turn the TV off. I am going to get all the news channels outside my house tomorrow, say everything bad about you, your family, and you should just ignore it and turn your TV off.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I didn't say it never happened, as I agree with you, the holocaust did happen.

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But why should people be allowed to continually ruin the lives of holocaust survivors and their families? They are permanently scarred for life. They don't need reminding of that or people saying it never happened.

I'm sorry SauravG but you really aren't helping matters because there are so many flaws in many of your arguments. I agree with Undertaker is some of his responses.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Maybe my examples are extreme, but its exactly what you are doing when you make the statements you have been doing.

Again, when Tash and I explained that I meant 1000 people outside you house IN REAL LIFE, you refused to answer it.

And thats fine, they should turn the TV off. I am going to get all the news channels outside my house tomorrow, say everything bad about you, your family, and you should just ignore it and turn your TV off.

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No I would not like people in real life shouting abuse. I have already answered that. On your last sentence, when has Nick Griffin ever done that? :S

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But why should people be allowed to continually ruin the lives of holocaust survivors and their families? They are permanently scarred for life. They don't need reminding of that or people saying it never happened.

I'm sorry SauravG but you really aren't helping matters because there are so many flaws in many of your arguments. I agree with Undertaker is some of his responses.

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Why should socialist parties be allowed to operate when socialism killed hundreds of millions of people on China, Russia, Eastern Europe, North Korea, Cambodia? - democracy.

I loathe socialism, however I would never ban people from being socialist or having socialist ideas/thoughts.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

That is his historical opinion, I don't agree with him and neither do you or most other people. It is not my right or your right to take away his right to an opinion on that subject, as long as he is not preaching hatred towards jewish people.

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He is though, in my opinion it is a form of hatred towards the jewish people to deny that millions of their fellow people died in concentration camps. It's disrespecting their memories and hurting their living descendants.

Also you are in full support of the freedom of speech, but you say hatred should not be allowed? But thats just contradicting your argument :S
If freedom of speech should be allowed without limits, so should hatred. Me saying "I hate undertaker" is my opinion and I should be allowed to say what I want :) But you say hatred should not be allowed, so by that you are saying freedom of speech should have limits :)

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Originally Posted by Tash.

He is though, in my opinion it is a form of hatred towards the jewish people to deny that millions of their fellow people died in concentration camps. It's disrespecting their memories and hurting their living descendants.

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That is not hatred, he is merely saying that he does not believe that such a mass murder could of been carried out by the Third Reich. I disagree with him, you disagree with him and a lot of other people disagree with him.

What I don't disagree with is his democratic right for an opinion on an historical event.

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Also you are in full support of the freedom of speech, but you say hatred should not be allowed? But thats just contradicting your argument :S
If freedom of speech should be allowed without limits, so should hatred. Me saying "I hate undertaker" is my opinion and I should be allowed to say what I want :) But you say hatred should not be allowed, so by that you are saying freedom of speech should have limits :)

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I'm in full support of freedom of speech as long as it does not preach hatred, denying the holocaust is not hatred.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I'm in full support of freedom of speech as long as it does not preach hatred, denying the holocaust is not hatred.

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But your argument is that freedom of speech should not have limits, but you say hatred should not be allowed again and again, but you are just contradicting yourself.
If freedom of speech should have no limits, a person should be allowed to say whatever they want, even if its hatred.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

But your argument is that freedom of speech should not have limits, but you say hatred should not be allowed again and again, but you are just contradicting yourself.
If freedom of speech should have no limits, a person should be allowed to say whatever they want, even if its hatred.

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I have not said that freedom of speech should not have any limits. I am saying that making holocaust denial illegal is one step too far.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

it isn't freedom of speech if its restricted!

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I have not said that freedom of speech should not have any limits. I am saying that making holocaust denial illegal is one step too far.

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Less than an hour apart.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I have not said that freedom of speech should not have any limits. I am saying that making holocaust denial illegal is one step too far.

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Denying the holocaust is indirectly spreading hatred.
It is denying the terrible things that happened. I am going to presume you haven't lost a family member who you knew and loved in the holocaust. If you did, you would be against what Nick Griffin says.
Holocaust involved torture. If for example, a member of your family was tortured, then killed and you had video evidence of it all, and someone said that never happened, how would you feel?
I am having to use extreme examples to try and get you to see why your argument is flawed in everyway.

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Originally Posted by FlyDuo

Less than an hour apart.

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Thank you, I was sure he has said it. He is just contradicting himself. Some people hate being proved wrong.

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Originally Posted by FlyDuo

Less than an hour apart.

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The law takes place over freedom of speech if its protecting somebody, there is nobody to protest from holocaust denial. Holocaust denial does not target any specific people, it only challenges the widely accepted historical view, one which I accept.

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Denying the holocaust is indirectly spreading hatred.
It is denying the terrible things that happened. I am going to presume you haven't lost a family member who you knew and loved in the holocaust. If you did, you would be against what Nick Griffin says.
Holocaust involved torture. If for example, a member of your family was tortured, then killed and you had video evidence of it all, and someone said that never happened, how would you feel?
I am having to use extreme examples to try and get you to see why your argument is flawed in everyway.

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Who is is indirectly spreading hatred against?

I am against what Nick Griffin says on the holocaust as it stands, the holocaust happened and I accept that, why can you not understand that?

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I am having to use extreme examples to try and get you to see why your argument is flawed in everyway.

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I'm not being funny or anything but some of your posts have been full of flaws themselves and I personally agree with Undertaker on some of them. You occasionally seem a bit naive.

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Thank you, I was sure he has said it. He is just contradicting himself. Some people hate being proved wrong.

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I don't mind being proved wrong as long as I am actually proved wrong and its not just somebody like you saying they have proved me wrong when you clearly haven't done anything of the sort - yes my first post was a bit of a pun but yes when directly put against what I said later, it did prove my later quote wrong.

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Originally Posted by FlyDuo

I'm not being funny or anything but some of your posts have been full of flaws themselves and I personally agree with Undertaker on some of them. You occasionally seem a bit naive.

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Please explain which bit (but I agree my gender example was flawed).
What Nick Griffin says is similar to my example.
He is denying it all, and I am saying if something happened to him and I denied it, he wouldn't be supporting what he is right now.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

Please explain which bit (but I agree my gender example was flawed).
What Nick Griffin says is similar to my example.
He is denying it all, and I am saying if something happened to him and I denied it, he wouldn't be supporting what he is right now.

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I would, because i'd know my relatives died because their freedom of speech/religion was taken away from them.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I would, because i'd know my relatives died because their freedom of speech/religion was taken away from them.

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Let me ask you two question to clear up somethings as I am not too sure now if what I think you think is what you actually think.

1. Do you believe the Freedom of Speech should not be limited?
2. Do you agree with Nick Griffin denything the holocaust?

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Let me ask you two question to clear up somethings as I am not too sure now if what I think you think is what you actually think.

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Ok.

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Do you believe the Freedom of Speech should not be limited?

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I believe it should only be limited when it involves hatred.

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Do you agree with Nick Griffin denything the holocaust?

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I do not agree with his opinion on the holocaust, however I agree with his democratic right to do so.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I believe it should only be limited when it involves hatred.

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But do you not agree, by denying the Holocaust, he is indirectly causing hatred? Do you not agree, his views have caused so many people mental pain? It is very easy to say that they should ignore him, but the fact is, its extremely hard.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

But do you not agree, by denying the Holocaust, he is indirectly causing hatred? Do you not agree, his views have caused so many people mental pain? It is very easy to say that they should ignore him, but the fact is, its extremely hard.

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No, because hes not doing it to incite hatred, hes doing it because he genuinely believes the holocaust did not happen.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

No, because hes not doing it to incite hatred, hes doing it because he genuinely believes the holocaust did not happen.

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I think everything he does is to try and get a reaction out of people. If not, then he is (well he is anyway) a complete moron.
You cannot send everyone who breaks the law out of this country. There would hardly be anyone left as everyone has broken a law.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I think everything he does is to try and get a reaction out of people. If not, then he is (well he is anyway) a complete moron.

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He's getting the reaction out of you then, you are suggesting that an opinion that differs to yours should be banned - if thats Griffins plan then you yourself have fallen for it.

Bloody 'ell this thread has grown a fair bit since I last came to it!

@the argument of 'freedom of speech means I can come to your street with a gang and shout abuse at you':

Although a basic right, freedom of speech is something you should value and be proud to posses, rather than abusing it in such a way. It is designed to allow minorities to speak out without fear of punishment. However if you're going to go one step further and take advantage of this freedom by using it to abuse others, there are laws in place to prevent this because there is a big difference between 'I do not believe said event happened' and 'YOU ARE A ******* ***** AND I HATE YOU'.

I agree that dismissing a historical fact is rather ignorant, but once again I will say, that is not the point.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

He's getting the reaction out of you then, you are suggesting that an opinion that differs to yours should be banned - if thats Griffins plan then you yourself have fallen for it.

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I have never said an opinion which differs to mine should be banned. I believe that he is nothing but an idiot if he denies the holocaust.

How can BNP claim to be not racist when non-whites aren't allowed to be a member? Yes they will be allowed soon but it isn't what they wanted. The fact that non-whites were denied membership in the first place shows that they are racist.

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I have never said an opinion which differs to mine should be banned. I believe that he is nothing but an idiot if he denies the holocaust.

How can BNP claim to be not racist when non-whites aren't allowed to be a member? Yes they will be allowed soon but it isn't what they wanted. The fact that non-whites were denied membership in the first place shows that they are racist.

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I can only base what I know on a balance between what I've heard Nick Griffin say versus what the media say, but isn't their whole point that they don't anyone in the country who is not of British descendancy?

agreeing with sergio (on the point that the thread has had about 5 billion more posts since i last came)

but im agreeing with flyduo, sauravg and tash.

denying the holocaust is offending people directly, although it may seem it's not.

like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

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Originally Posted by Sergio

Bloody 'ell this thread has grown a fair bit since I last came to it!

@the argument of 'freedom of speech means I can come to your street with a gang and shout abuse at you':

Although a basic right, freedom of speech is something you should value and be proud to posses, rather than abusing it in such a way. It is designed to allow minorities to speak out without fear of punishment. However if you're going to go one step further and take advantage of this freedom by using it to abuse others, there are laws in place to prevent this because there is a big difference between 'I do not believe said event happened' and 'YOU ARE A ******* ***** AND I HATE YOU'.

I agree that dismissing a historical fact is rather ignorant, but once again I will say, that is not the point.

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That to me is the definition of freedom of speech and yet you go on to say that it should be ok for Griffin to say these things. He is exploiting the use of freedom of speech. I don't personally believe that Nick Griffin is stupid enough to think that the holocaust didnt happen. He's a Hitler sympathiser, he agrees with much of what Hitler said and believed in so of course he's going to deny that such a thing was possible.

The example being used here about shouting hatred to someone on the street does compare with this. I personally did not have any relatives who died in the holocaust but to me its insensitive to suggest that it didn't happen. Freedom of speech is restricted by law, as you say, to prevent the abuse of minorities. This to me is the abuse of the memories of those people who died.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

agreeing with sergio (on the point that the thread has had about 5 billion more posts since i last came)

but im agreeing with flyduo, sauravg and tash.

denying the holocaust is offending people directly, although it may seem it's not.

like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

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This is exactly the point again, the reason homophobia and racism is outlawed is to prevent it being used as a weapon against someone physically, verbally or mentally. Holocaust denial is abusing someones mental memories of those who died in those concentration camps. It's disrespect on the highest level.

Just to contribute to this, you may find this interesting. The Student Union president at the university where I go to, well he posted all the addresses and names of constituents of the BNP in Stafford and Stoke areas, which included children (if I heard correctly). Theres a meeting at 5PM in Stoke about it, but you need to be a student to go to the debate. Apparently the BNP has threatened legal action against the union because of this and this is why theres a meeting later on.

You can listen to it at www.omgstaffs.com and it should be under radio, just click on the radio pic probably. But yeah, thatll be at 5PM and it should be interesting. I really wanted to go but I've got work to do for the Uni :( Should be interesting though, BNP members wont be there but there will be plenty of stuff against the guy who did it.

It is indeed disrespectful and if the BNP party leader denies it, then what are the party going to think?

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Originally Posted by SauravG

I have never said an opinion which differs to mine should be banned. I believe that he is nothing but an idiot if he denies the holocaust.

How can BNP claim to be not racist when non-whites aren't allowed to be a member? Yes they will be allowed soon but it isn't what they wanted. The fact that non-whites were denied membership in the first place shows that they are racist.

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If you believe that denying the holocaust should be illegal then you support banning an opinion which is different to yours, that is not democratic. If you don't believe it should be made illegal, what exactly are you trying to get across?

On the last point, i'm not arguing over whether they are racist or not, that is another can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

agreeing with sergio (on the point that the thread has had about 5 billion more posts since i last came)

but im agreeing with flyduo, sauravg and tash.

denying the holocaust is offending people directly, although it may seem it's not.

like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

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Denying the holocaust isn't standing outside somebodies funeral and laughing.

Good. Britain will improve alot and I shall be voting when I can. :D

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Denying the holocaust isn't standing outside somebodies funeral and laughing.

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No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

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Thats an opinion, its his opinion which he has a right to express. We did fight facists, yet people such as yourself seem determined to impose it back on us with restriction of freedom of speech.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

No, you're right...

It's turning to millions of people and saying that you have no knowledge of the war and that your families and relatives funerals are a joke and they didn't die doing anything heroic or brave, they didn't suffer anything. Just move on with your lives and forget about it.

Do you know how many people that would upset?

We fought facists, I don't think people want to forget about it.
Isn't that the point you've being trying to make all along?

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Could not have said it better myself. Its actually the equivalent in my mind of him standing on the graves and memorials of all those who died and laughing in the face of what they died for.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

Thats an opinion, its his opinion which he has a right to express. We did fight facists, yet people such as yourself seem determined to impose it back on us with restriction of freedom of speech.

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That's not an opinion, it's fact.

If you deny the holocaust, you're insulting millions of people. There's no 2 ways about it.

I'm hardly facist standing up for people who can get picked on day to day by other people who say it's all a myth, they then target the families, insulting them and bringing them to tears.

I don't think you answered my question where I put to you what would you honestly feel like if someone denied your families deaths.

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

... like saurav said, if he came and laughed at one of your family's funeral, would you honestly take it as it was and ignore it?

but imagine if people kept laughing, and laughing etc.

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Why, who laughed at whose funeral??? :S

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Originally Posted by Tash.

Could not have said it better myself. Its actually the equivalent in my mind of him standing on the graves and memorials of all those who died and laughing in the face of what they died for.

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No it's not... :S

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Originally Posted by Tash.

That to me is the definition of freedom of speech and yet you go on to say that it should be ok for Griffin to say these things. He is exploiting the use of freedom of speech. I don't personally believe that Nick Griffin is stupid enough to think that the holocaust didnt happen. He's a Hitler sympathiser, he agrees with much of what Hitler said and believed in so of course he's going to deny that such a thing was possible.

The example being used here about shouting hatred to someone on the street does compare with this. I personally did not have any relatives who died in the holocaust but to me its insensitive to suggest that it didn't happen. Freedom of speech is restricted by law, as you say, to prevent the abuse of minorities. This to me is the abuse of the memories of those people who died.

This is exactly the point again, the reason homophobia and racism is outlawed is to prevent it being used as a weapon against someone physically, verbally or mentally. Holocaust denial is abusing someones mental memories of those who died in those concentration camps. It's disrespect on the highest level.

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Whether he means what he says is a completely different issue. The point is freedom of speech allows him to BELIEVE the holocaust didn't occur and thus share this belief. Obviously if he doesn't really mean it, then it's not an actual belief :rolleyes:.

Not believing something is not even similar to shouting anything at anybody! :S He's not targeting an individual person like you would be if you were shouting at someone in the street. Also, just because he doesn't believe it, doesn't mean he hates those who do believe it.

I really don't get why you're trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a big huge hate issue? :S:S:S

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Originally Posted by Ardemax

That's not an opinion, it's fact.

If you deny the holocaust, you're insulting millions of people. There's no 2 ways about it.

I'm hardly facist standing up for people who can get picked on day to day by other people who say it's all a myth, they then target the families, insulting them and bringing them to tears.

I don't think you answered my question where I put to you what would you honestly feel like if someone denied your families deaths.

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I didn't say it wasn't a fact, I said some people think its not a fact and in a democracy it is their right to state their opinion.

I wouldn't feel anything because I would know they are dead. :S

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Originally Posted by Sergio

Why, who laughed at whose funeral??? :S



No it's not... :S



Whether he means what he says is a completely different issue. The point is freedom of speech allows him to BELIEVE the holocaust didn't occur and thus share this belief. Obviously if he doesn't really mean it, then it's not an actual belief :rolleyes:.

Not believing something is not even similar to shouting anything at anybody! :S He's not targeting an individual person like you would be if you were shouting at someone in the street. Also, just because he doesn't believe it, doesn't mean he hates those who do believe it.

I really don't get why you're trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a big huge hate issue? :S:S:S

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I said in my mind thats what the equivalent is, I didn't say it was the actual equivalent.

When I was writing the part about whether I think he believes what he was saying, what I was trying to put across is he is using his freedom of speech to make a controversial opinion and also with the intention of defending the actions of the Nazi's. What you're not getting is my point that he is exploiting the right to freedom of speech.. thats all i've said. I don't think he hates those who think that the Holocaust did exist, infact i'd rather he did. Instead he continues to disrespect the memories of those who died. That's a whole lot worse.

I'm not actually trying to fade the subject of beliefs into a hate issue, he doesn't just believe in something he feels the need to spread this hatred into the public domain, thats what I don't like. Nick Griffin takes advantage of those who have no real opinion for themselves and therefore take upon the most extreme in their time of need. That's how the Nazi's got into power and it seems as though the lesson hasn't yet been learnt because his mission is to do the same thing all over again and he's being allowed to.

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Originally Posted by -:Undertaker:-

I didn't say it wasn't a fact, I said some people think its not a fact and in a democracy it is their right to state their opinion.

I wouldn't feel anything because I would know they are dead. :S

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I'm pretty sure you know he means if someone was denying they died in a concentration camps purely on the basis that they were either disabled, black, jewish, travellers or gay.